Question to member developers....

Hey Guys,

Normally I don't hang out much in the forums - but after a recent discussion I've been involved in on the site - I had a bit of a question that I wanted to throw out there...

How many developers (who use Gavick, and other clubs) are doing little or no customizations to the templates that they get from clubs? As well, how many actually let their clients in on the whole "Template Club" part of the build as well?

Myself, I like to let my clients peruse the clubs (not only the ones I'm a member of, but others that I feel put out great work) before I even go into a customization project. I also usually have THEM get the membership license as well - which saves me from having to subscribe to 5+ clubs at the developer level so I can actually use them on other sites that i don't own.

(How many of you out there know that if you are not a developer level member, you can only use the templates on your own personal websites?)

I was just curious to see what sort of response I get on this...

First, Sorry I didn't notice this until now.

Now to answer your question:

I heavily customize CSS with every template and usually move modules around. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if clients didn't get a unique design.

and

No, I don't let any clients in on the club AND (more importantly IMO) I'm cautious with regard to providing details about the commercial extensions I use (JomSocial - iProperty, etc). My philosophy is that - When you buy a house you don't necessarily find out where the builder is shopping or how much he is paying for a garage door opener or a ceiling fan. The price you pay is generally based on amenities and square footage.


I do have a demo page which I have modeled after demo.gavick.com. This page has 5 templates in default form minus template name and Gavick information. I feel this is fair because it shows what I'm capable of delivering - plus, I didn't have much time to spend on a demo page, besides, I'd rather let finished work speak for itself. But I'm only in my third month, so there isn't much finished work to offer.


Something else I should point out:

I only operate locally. My local competition is from a company that has designed their own CMS. They have a fulltime staff of about 20 people in order to support the CMS and their clients. It's nice, but not worth the money IMO.

So, as I said, I keep private details about templates and commercial extensions. Conversely I promote the gills out of Joomla! as an Open Source solution for small businesses. Because unlike the proprietary solutions offered by the competition, Joomla! is a low cost solution that will yield massive returns well into the foreseeable future. I sell customers on the importance of open source - The community of 20,000+ supporters (emphasis on The Bug Squad).

Whereas my pricing is based on a onetime payment of $800, the competition is charging $4000+ and a monthly service fee of god knows how much.

My cost are infinitesimally less than my competition, therefore my price is substantially more appealingly to potential clients. My prices are based on COST (Clubs, Individual Extension Licenses, Hosting, SSLs, Professional Sales Representation, etc) and TIME (Research, Installation, Configuration, Design, Content-Insertion, Implementation - even Educating the Client on how to use J!).

All of my prices are available UP FRONT on my site. If anyone wants to take a look and email me with their thoughts, comparisons and whatever else, I'll happily talk a little shop.


NOTE: I do require a $120 hosting charge for the first year in order to guarantee each site against bugs and security issues. This covers security audits, back-ups, updates, and hosting on my VPS. After the first year, clients may transfer or re-up.

PS:

I really like your style, but at this stage in my business it wouldn't work. I don't have a loyal enough customer base or word of mouth yet to encourage that level of individualism from the clients.

really like both ways you guys are using. me my self don't really sell out of my work, i purchased this subscription for my dads company's www, and i let him in on which template to choose... we went with the corporateII and I started my customization...

If i were to make more www / start up a business for that side, i would promote it as joomla, but not talk about the template clubs...

great reading guys...

explodedk wrote:

really like both ways you guys are using. me my self don't really sell out of my work, i purchased this subscription for my dads company's www, and i let him in on which template to choose... we went with the corporateII and I started my customization...

If i were to make more www / start up a business for that side, i would promote it as joomla, but not talk about the template clubs...

great reading guys...

I'm always up for this type of discussion. I'm not competing with anyone online, so it's nice to find out what people charge for various services, how they manage clients, how they stay on track with projects, etc.

I read constantly about what's new with components to see what the latest trends are. I blog too... http://pagemade.com/news/blog.html

Ok well just as a matter of interest, how much would you charge a client for a full customisation of the ' Sporter ' template. Also, how many hours would it take to go from start to finish. The customisation would involve all images being replaced with a selection taken from iStock Photo & used to replace the current images with Sporter. Add 10+ pages of text content, modify the contact us page so it acts as an application form. The background image would be replaced, the colour scheme of the ' Sporter ' template would be changed also.

Also there would be at least 3 days of onsite Joomla training for the client. Plus some core SEO work for the site, which would involve a Google AdWords campaign based on the competitions keywords and other organic user based feedback.

Thanks,

Niall Kelly

Depending on the template, and the level of customization required (whether or not its just images, and color scheme - or need to add/adjust the module layout and other more advanced changes) my personal rate runs between $500 to $1500 for customizations...

IN the case of what you are explaining... we're talking the $500 customization - and with the changeup to the contact form - add in a simple Job Application component rather than redesign the contact system in Joomla so that they can use a full featured job application system and track applications, store them, etc. There are several free and commercial ones available.

Content - don't do this yourself. Put together a set fee for your time for training, and make the CLIENT add the content during the training. The best way for your client to become self sufficient and not calling you for every nickle and dime thing is to let them handle this stuff themselves. Arm them with the knowledge and make them do the work as they learn.

This serves another purpose - it gives the client the ability to feel more involved with the overall building of the site.

On the subject of SEO and Google AdWords - ensure that you know about the relationships between the site itself and its use of Content, Keywords, and other items - and the Google AdWord campaigns and targeted words they are using. You want the customer to make the most of their keyword adword campaigns, and most website owners have no clue how crucial the relationship with the WEBSITE's keywords on the targeted ad campaign entry pages are to the ads keywords and even the content within the ad itself. Clients can wind up spending a TON of money on ads that don't produce clicks or on key phraises that are way too general and have nothing to do with the clients website.

Just saying...

Hi rhantson,

Thanks for the feedback on my question. The level of customization required would be labour intensive & time consuming, the client has little or no IT skills, therefore, the hours required for training could be quite high. Also the client would not have the time at present to add the content, they need someone to add the content as per the text & images they have set out.

I agree with the point you made on the SEO, I've seen clients spend crazy money on contextual click advertising with poor results, also some clients expect to be on page 1 of a Google search result within weeks of the initial site launch.

Well it was good talking with you, thanks again for your input to my question post.

Niall Kelly

--

great topic!

i'm in the process of setting up a local brochure-site-producing company.

the idea is that clients will pick a template, send in their 5-pages of content and away i go. all done online and via email, with no time consuming calls or meetings.

customizations will be done by design brief and charged by the hour.

sounds too good to be true i know, so feel free to pick holes in this for me because the apparent simplicity has me nervous that it's going to be anything but!!!

cheers

regan

Siomplicity is ALWAYS a great place to start... but keep yourself open to the fact that it will not just be simple with the Client.

The more you do for them without any lengthy consultation - the more you'll wind up returning for nickle and dime material changes.

I'd include with them, a certain amount of time that is INCLUDED in the overall price - for general consultations, and make it clear what your hourly base rate is (billed in 15 minute increments or whatever suits you best) so there is no misunderstanding of "additional changes" that customers will NO DOUBT return to you with over and over and over and...

Hi all,

I like this topic, its good to hear from other developers of different levels discuss their issues with the Joomla world, it would be great is Gavick.com could create a Lounge for member developers to talk freely all things development / customisation etc. An example of this type of open relationship can be found at experts exchange.

The greater communication between Gavick.com member developers would give Gavick.com an excellent window into future improvements to the product / service.

Thanks,

Niall Kelly

--

I don't need a lounge so much as a therapy group LOL.

I'm coming up on two years of being on my own. I launched this business with a lot of goals in mind. Regrettably, they haven't all worked out.

Most notable was the concept of giving the clients something they could manage. I wanted to enter my local market with the promise of an affordable website, free from a full time webmaster. Unfortunately this brings up a few issues.

1. Clients don't spend enough time on Joomla! to really learn it. I train everyone on their website for Two Hours (just enough to teach them content and user management). After that session I'm told things like, "Well that is really easy" or "I totally get this". They're excited. But after a month I invariably receive an email which says, Hey I tried logging on to the website for the first time, what do I do again? 50 emails later... you get the idea.

2. Some clients (and I hate to say this) Really Are Technophobe/Tech-Illiterate to the extent they are incapable of managing even the simplest task, regardless the training. And I hate to sound like an ageist, but that does seem to be a common factor.

There are a few ways to solve this, and while they seem obvious, neither is simple.

I could offer full management packages, in which I quantify the duties and charge a monthly rate -
Pros: I know the work will be quality, I wouldn't mind having the monthly income

Cons: It negates my entire mission statement of low-cost DIY websites (for the people I've already sold websites to this would be a Netflix style slap to the face), I would also need another person in my operation to share in the work load.

I could be more selective about who I sell websites to, get to know them first and determine if they or someone in their company is competent enough to manage the website -
Pros: I would keep my word on the low-cost DIY mission statement

Cons: I would be turning down business like a crazy person, I would also probably offend a lot of people (regardless of my phrasing)

This is all my biggest issue, but I assure you, there are others.

Updating all of my Joomla sites, for one, is becoming more and more of a chore. The 1.6 to 1.7 isn't nearly as easy as it was originally promised. And Joomla Update on 1.5 no longer offers the Patch Package. Each update will need to be done manually, and will take a lot of babysitting.

How can I delete the colon : a t the end of the news scroll highlighter?

Example:

Website: http://www.azharacademybolton.org

@moghees: looks like you have managed to fix the issue, I don't see that colon now.